Episode 45-
Bradley Bale
Unwavering Compassion and Fearlessness with Dr. Bradley Bale
Today's guest is Dr. Bradley Bale, a pioneering cardiologist and co-founder of the BaleDoneen Method.
In this episode, we explore Brad’s fearless approach to life, the driving force behind his groundbreaking practice, and dive into why he’s willing to take a few arrows in the back for what he believes in.
The BaleDoneen Method is a personalized approach to preventing and managing heart attacks, strokes, and cardiovascular disease (CVD). It focuses on identifying and treating the root causes of arterial disease rather than just addressing risk factors like high blood pressure or cholesterol.
Resources
Follow your curiosity, connect, and join our ever-growing community of extraordinary minds.
The Bezos Blueprint
The Biology of Kindness
What's In This Episode
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Brad’s motivation for taking a few arrows in the back.
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Why the cardiovascular status quo isn’t good enough.
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The financial incentives of late-stage treatment and not prevention.
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The power of optimistic thinking.
Transcript
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Look, let me tell you something. I didn't go to medical school to have an insurance company tell me how much time I can spend with a patient, what tests I can order, and what treatment I can deliver. I know what I'm doing is working, it's helping people. If I keep practicing medicine, I'm going to keep doing this. So see if you can figure out a way how that can occur, and if you can't, I love working with wood. I got lots of woodworking equipment. I said, "I'll put the kids through the school building furniture. That's fine with me."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
On Contrary to Ordinary, we explore the motivation, lives and characters of innovators who see limitless potential around them. Through these conversations, we hope to provide insight into how you can emulate the mindsets of these extraordinary people in your own life and work. My name is Dr. Kim Kutsch, and I spent over 20 years in dentistry before creating Carry Free over 20 years ago. We offer a range of dental products to the industry and the public, that promote the health and wellness of people suffering from the disease of dental caries, otherwise known as tooth decay.
This week I'm joined by Dr. Bradley Bale, a trailblazer in cardiovascular health, and co-creator of the BaleDoneen Method. Don't worry, we'll unpack exactly what that is a little later. In this episode, we'll explore Brad's fearless approach to life, the driving force behind his groundbreaking practice, and why he's willing to take a few arrows in the back for what he believes in. But before we dive in, I want to start with something I see as central to Brad's courage, his fierce and unwavering compassion. Let's jump in with Brad.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
That's originally just family practice. I've been in practice for over 20 years, and in those days, your patients weren't just patients, they were friends.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Absolutely.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
You knew everybody, and you liked them, and got concerned when they had issues. And I had more than my share of patients that came in, and I was concerned about their heart, maybe a heart attack, so I'd send them to the cardiologist. They would do the normal thing of course, put them on a treadmill. They'd pass that. They'd call me up and say, "Oh, no, they're fine." Then a week later, they're either in the hospital with a heart attack or they're dead. And so, it's like a slap in the face. It's like, golly, because I'd always had huge respect for cardiologists, I still do. But it's like, the realization hit me. They don't know squat about preventing heart attacks. They're not trained in it. They're just trained to treat them, and that was a huge wake-up call. And so then I started looking at all the research out there to gather information. Golly, they don't know how to do it. Well, I'm going to find out how to do it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And you kind of had an awakening of what we've been doing doesn't work.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. No, obviously. Yeah. It's insane to just keep doing what we've been doing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And heart attacks today are the number one killer in the United States, and have been for 124 years. It hasn't changed.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy, it's insane. It's like, "What?" That's ridiculous.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So for my listeners who've never heard of it before, because I know not everybody's heard of the BaleDoneen Method, I want to explore that just a little bit about what it is, what it means. And then I want to talk also about your book Beat the Heart Attack Gene. Because like I said, I found out I'm homozygous. I got both heart attack genes, one from Mom and one from Dad. And so, my odds went from one to three down to one to two. So, that was a wake up call for me about, I want to know where I'm at. I want to be able to prevent these chronic diseases of aging.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. The BaleDoneen Method in real simple terms, the difference between it and the standard of care is, the standard of care to look to see if you need management or treatment relies on risk factors, and we know historically that frequently fails. The ones that they say from the risk value are fine. A lot of those people go on and have events. So, we've known that for a long time. What we base our method on as we evaluate each individual patient for the presence or absence of arterial disease, having disease in the artery is a condition sine qua non for having risk for a heart attack or stroke. You have to have disease.
And granted, 50 years ago, we had no great ways to look for disease. But we've had great ways to look for disease now for decades, and it's just not being utilized. Sometimes it only takes one test. So if we do the ultrasound of the carotid and we find plaque or disease in the wall of the artery there, we're done. Because the body was built to protect the brain basically, longer than any other organ. We have lots of studies to show, if you have disease in your carotid, you're not only at risk for a stroke, you're at risk for a heart attack.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know, I'm sitting here listening to this, Brad, and I'm thinking, you were so successful at preventing disease, heart attacks. So, did you get a lot of arrows in the back would you say? I mean-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Probably, I could care less. And that's how I ended up doing this. I think you know the story with my wife. Because this patient was in one of our first books, we called him Dead Man Walking. And he was 64 and had several major heart attacks. And after his last one, they held a conference in the hospital in Bozeman, Montana, all sorts of specialists there, talking about his case. And they concluded, "You know, we don't know why his disease is so aggressive. There's really nothing else we can do." Then they told him that, and in his mind, he had maybe six months to live. So he talks about it with his wife and she says, "Look, Henry, do whatever you want. Retire a little bit early. We have a motor home. You want to travel around the country and say goodbye to your best friends, that's great. Let's do that."
So he did it. He retired early, got in their motor home. Their first stop was Spokane, Washington. His best friend there was a patient of mine. So his best friend calls me up, tells me the situation, says, "Is there any way you can see him anyway?" And I said, "Well, I'm really booked up, my last patient's at 6:30 tonight, but yeah, go ahead. He's only here for a couple of days, I'll go ahead and I'll see him." So he came in that night about 6:30, and I still remember exactly the room he was in, exactly where he was standing. He had wire-rimmed glasses. He had Kleenex in his hand. He was wiping tears away from his eyes. And his wife was standing over in the corner leaning against the radiator, totally despondent.
And I just started talking to Henry. And after about a half an hour talking to him, I said, "Henry, I think maybe I know why your disease is so aggressive. And if I'm right, there's a lot more we can do to stop this thing. So we just need to do some other testing." Long story short, we did find several reasons why his disease is so aggressive and started treating them. And that night though, I didn't get home until about 9:00. At the time I had three young children at home. My wife was not happy. "You're staying way too late at work. You're not even seeing your children." So she wasn't happy about that. But then she got even more upset when about three months later, she was handling the books for my office. And she comes to me and said, "You know that patient you're so proud of, you called Dead Man Walking? You know what the insurance company paid you for seeing him?"
I said, "No, but I'm sure you're going to tell me." She said, "Well, they paid you $30. If you don't cut this stuff out we're going to go bankrupt. You've got three children you got to put through college." I just calmly looked at her. I could understand what she's saying. I said, "Look, let me tell you something. I didn't go to medical school to have an insurance company tell me how much time I can spend with a patient, what tests I can order, and what treatment I can deliver. I know what I'm doing is working, it's helping people. If I keep practicing medicine, I'm going to keep doing this. I'm going to keep doing it." I said, "So see if you can figure out a way how that can occur, and if you can't, I love working with wood. I got lots of wood working equipment."
I said, "I'll put the kids through the school building furniture. That's fine with me. But I'm not going to practice medicine unless I can do it the way I know it needs to be done." Well, the next day she calls me into her little office and she says, "I just got back from the Spokane Courthouse. I just opened up a new business called the Heart Attack and Stroke Prevention Clinic. I don't deal with insurance companies, and I don't deal with the Federal Government. You work for me. If you can find enough patients that'll pay you a fair price for the time you spend with them, you can keep doing the medicine. If not, go build the furniture." So she basically threw me off the cliff, but obviously it ended up working.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And what great insight that she had that our healthcare shouldn't be determined by insurance or Medicare. And the problem is, so much of our healthcare in the United States is dictated that way, right?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. It's a shame.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's a shame. And that model needs to change. And it's people like you, the pioneers that have the courage to stand up and say, "No, we need to be doing this. We need to prevent these events."
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Well, unfortunately, it's like Amy says in terms of the insurance, she said, "Most healthcare providers have now allowed the insurance company to be the default medical expert."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. And you have to be your own advocate.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
And that's ridiculous.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It is ridiculous. And if you want that level of prevention and care, you have to be your own advocate.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Make sure you've got lots of life insurance if that's what you want.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, I know, right? So, I think we've established the fact that you're fearless.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I think that there's a bit of a rebel in you. And I would say, what would you say to somebody in our audience who want to be able to face their fears better? What kind of piece of advice would you give somebody who's like, "you know, I want to do this, but I'm afraid"?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. I guess to me, one of the reasons, one thing that influenced my life, was a person called Scotty Hubbard. He's still alive. He's down in San Francisco. He was brilliant. He's a genius. And one thing I learned from Scotty is, you always want to view things from the extremes. Look at one extreme and the other extreme, and then come to something in the middle. And so, when you're afraid of something, it's like, well, what's the worst thing that's going to happen because of your fear, or vice versa? And I think that attitude helps. It's like, what's the worst thing if the cardiologists get mad at me and they want to kill my program? I mean, so what? I'm not going to stop doing what I'm doing. They could say whatever they want about me. And the patients that the program's gone, well, they stayed with me anyway. We just do it somewhere else.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. And what's the best-case scenario?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah, yeah. They keep getting the care. Whereas if you're afraid, "Well, golly, no, I'm afraid I'm going to step on their toes, and maybe I should just let them go ahead and do that transplant on that patient." I mean, "What?"
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know, I really like that record. I'm sitting here thinking, so what's the worst possible thing that could happen, and what's the best possible thing that could happen? And realizing that the odds of either one of those two things on the extreme probably aren't... Probably not good odds either one of those to happen. But so, somewhere in the middle of that is pretty safe. So, would you describe yourself as an optimist on that?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No, that sometimes drives people that know me real well crazy, because I am total optimist. Yeah. I mean, why not? Why are you going to be the opposite? It's not healthy, I don't think.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
On having a great positive outlook. You know, I was just-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
If you're not optimistic, probably good things aren't going to happen. If you're optimistic, maybe it doesn't happen all the time, but hey, something's going to happen. Attitudes critical for sure. And I think being optimistic is a very good trait to have. I think it's healthy. We even have studies, of course, showing people who are optimistic are less likely to die from heart attacks.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, right? Carmine Gallo, author of the Bezos Blueprint fed, and I quote, "I've become a student of optimistic thinking, because it's the one consistent quality that I've observed in every inspiring leader I've met or written about." Optimism doesn't just lift your spirits and make you more successful, it brings significant health benefits too. According to Harvard Professor Immaculata De Vivo, and spiritual teacher, Daniel Lumera, author of The Biology of Kindness, optimism can improve both your immune and metabolic systems. It can even extend your lifespan. They write, and I quote, "Optimists tend to live on average 11 to 15% longer than pessimists, and have an excellent chance of achieving exceptional longevity."
So the next time you find yourself imagining the worst, remember Brad's law of averages. It's unlikely that the outcome will be the absolute worst or the best. Chances are it'll land somewhere in between. In this episode, we spent a lot of time discussing the cardiovascular status quo, how we've been relying on the same methods for over a century, and expecting different results. This raises an important question. Why isn't the BaleDoneen Method the standard of care?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
There are numerous reasons for that. And I think eventually it may become the standard of care, but it'll turn our system upside down financially. So that's a huge obstacle to overcome. Because our system was set up to treat end-stage disease, which makes sense. Hey, 100 years ago, 120 years ago, what the heck? It was amazing what they came up with to tackle heart attacks. "Oh my gosh, we got stents, we got angioplasty, we got bypass. We can give you an artificial heart. We can transplant your heart." So on the surface, it looks like, "Oh my gosh, what's Dr. Bale talking about? We got a wonderful cardiovascular healthcare system."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Well, the reality is, we got a sinking ship, as heart attacks have remained the number one killer, strokes the number one cause of disability, and it's all preventable.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Exactly.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
But there's not much money in prevention.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
No. And that's the whole heart of the problem, is that, the money should be in prevention, because it would save billions of dollars. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, I don't care about upsetting the financial system. I want to be prevented. I want to treat the disease process, and not the outcome of that disease and that event. I don't want to treat that. I want to avoid that. I don't want to have the heart attack and stroke.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. Right now what that requires, the individual person has to be proactive with their own health. They have to come to the realization, "Look, if I just want to do what the insurance company says I can do, there's a high likelihood I'm going to have one of these events or end up with microvascular disease the last 13 years of my life. I'm going to have heart failure, dementia, kidney failure, et cetera." But if they want to be proactive, they're going to have to reach in their pocket, and come up with some financing to make it happen. The good news is, it doesn't cost that much to get the prevention. Like I know, quite a few years ago in Spokane when I started doing the carotid test, and at that time it cost like $120. I still had a mixture of family practice and people that wanted to do more.
And I had this one patient, I told him about the carotids. "Golly, I'd really love doing it. I just can't afford it. Just can't afford it, I'm sorry. I really would like to do it." He said, "I'll be back." I'll be darned, they came back in six months. They had money in their pocket. They said, "I want that test." I said, how did you get the money? "I went out and collected tin cans."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
The bottle bill.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
I mean, so it's not impossible though. I don't care what somebody's income is, the testing that we do to accomplish the results that we get are not that expensive. Whereas, like you're saying, some of these other things cost thousands and thousands of dollars, but the insurance company will pay them.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. And that whole model just doesn't make sense to me.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
But the exciting thing is, really you can get the type of prevention that's needed to stabilize the arterial disease system. You can pay for it yourself. It's not that expensive. But right now, hey, you're going to have to reach in your pocket and pay for some of it, because the insurance company isn't going to cover it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Hey, Contrary to Ordinary listeners, I want to tell you about my company CariFree. We offer affordable science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family. Banish cavities for good, and welcome in a healthy smile and a great first impression. Visit carifree.com for more details. Now, back to the show. So you and Amy wrote a book, Beat the Heart Attack Gene.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
That was our first book.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That was your first book.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Right.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. Tell me about that book a little bit.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. We wanted to make sure people understood the importance of genetics in prevention, and the ability to really fine-tune management based on somebody's genes. Because you can't get any more personal than your genes. And most every guide, virtually every guideline that's out there, is based on treating a population. None of it's based on treating an individual person. So, you got a bell's curve for basically everything. So there will be people that that average fits, but there're going to be a whole bunch of people it doesn't fit. And they're not going to benefit from it, or even be harmed by it.
So, we want the genetics to try and fine-tune our management for that individual patient. There's nothing more important than treating that one individual, the end of one. All the studies, randomized controlled trials, what are they managing? Populations. What are the guidelines managing populations? What does the BaleDoneen Method manage? Individuals. And one way we have better results with that is getting genetic testing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. And that's in a nutshell, is one of the problems we've got. We take these randomized controlled trials of populations, and then we try and apply that data to an individual in a longitudinal sense. And that data doesn't always apply to that individual, right? And so-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
We know that it won't apply to a whole bunch of people. We know that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. And part of the problem with insurance, and I would argue the government as well, they all just try to manage populations. That's the way they're formed. It's treat a population. Anytime you treat a population, there will be some people that benefit, but there are going to be a whole bunch of people that don't benefit.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know, I had a practitioner say to me, "Well," I said, "Well, why aren't you doing these tests? I want these, why aren't you do that?" "Well you know, if we tested everybody, it would financially, it would break the system." So he said, "So we're going to lose a few." And I said to him, I go, "So that's acceptable to you. Like these acceptable losses." My son-in was one of those. And that's not acceptable to me. For me, I don't want to be a loss because the system was worried about whatever for a very inexpensive test. It's like, but in his mind, it's like, "Yeah, we're going to have a few losses." And I'm thinking like, "Well, I don't want to be one of... That doesn't work for me. I don't want to be one of those." And I think that's the challenge that we've got with healthcare today.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. Well, that reminds me of one story not many people know about. And then it's hard for me to talk about it, but I think it might be important to this. There's one reason nobody is going to shake my tree on what we're doing. And that was a lot of years ago. It was at the time when I was transitioning into this kind of work. I still had family practice patients. And I had this one beautiful gal, Aura, and she was originally family practice, but then she did want to get some of these more sophisticated tests, and she was willing to pay the price. And I was worried about her because she did have chest pain. She was also known to get very anxious. And I've been told by other people that her anxiety, she just gets panic attacks and that's why, et cetera.
And so, we were able to get her to do the coronary calcification. She had a positive score. It wasn't very high, but it proved she had disease. I got a CRP and it was elevated. So I said, "Aura, we've got to manage this. We have to get you on treatment." But at the same time I was worried enough that I thought... Because I was just starting to do this, I said, "I do want you to see a cardiologist. Let's get an angiogram. Just make sure you're okay." And the cardiologist saw her, did an angiogram. She was totally wide open, no evidence of disease. But I said, "That's great, but I know you got disease. I know you're inflamed. We need to treat you." And she believed me. So I got her treated on three different medications, and I was following her up pretty close because I was concerned about her, seeing her about every three months.
Then after about nine months, she'd cooled off, she'd stayed cooled off. And I said, "Look, I don't need to see you for six months. You're doing really well. Just keep doing what you're doing." And it was about six months later, at the end of the day fortunately, because I was a mess afterwards, my nurse comes to me and she says, "Did you hear about Aura?" I said, "No. She's probably about due to come in. But I hadn't heard anything from her." "Well, they just finished an autopsy on her. She died of a massive heart attack." Well, I was totally shaken. I went in the bathroom, I threw up. I did start crying my eyes out. I couldn't believe it. I felt horrible. How did I fail? What happened?
And so, I ended up calling her husband, Richard, get him on the phone and start talking. I'm basically apologizing. "I'm sorry. I thought we had her stabilized. She was in good shape. I'm just sick over it." And he said, "Well, you've been our doctor for years. And when this occurred we didn't want to tell you. But four months ago, our insurance changed and you weren't on their plan. So we had to change to another doctor. We went into that doctor. He reviewed her records. He saw she had a normal angiogram. He said, 'Oh yeah, Dr. Bale's a quack. He's doing all sorts of crazy stuff.'" Took her off every one of her medicines. Four months later she's dead of a heart attack.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
How old?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
So let me tell you after that, you think anybody's going to shake me on what I'm doing? There's no way.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Uh-uh. How old was she?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
She was only 52.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Oh my God, Brad. Yeah. I don't think anybody's going to think-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
So that case, that was it. After that, it was like, "I don't give a damn what you say. What we're doing is working. Don't tell me otherwise. You can call me quack all day long. I could care less."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Wow. That's pretty much, that's the end of the story right there. And God bless you, Brad, for what you and Amy are doing.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Well, I just feel blessed to be able to do what I'm doing. I mean, quite frankly, Kim, I should have died helicopter skiing. I should have. I mean, I've been in avalanches and had some of my friends die. I mean, that's a dangerous sport.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It is a dangerous sport.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
It's kind of puzzled me why I didn't die doing that. Because at the time I wasn't doing this heart attack stuff.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And that's why you-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
And somehow I lived through it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Well, you were-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Then I started doing all this other.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You were supposed to do this.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
I kind of believe in fate.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I do too. And I think you were destined to do this, right?
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah, I do believe in it. So I feel blessed. I honestly don't feel like I've done anything that great. I mean, the evidence is there. All you do is look at it and use it, right?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right, right. It is not rocket science, like you say.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
No, it's not.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's obvious. And it's so obvious to you. And yet so other many people, it doesn't seem obvious, or they seem oblivious to it. It's always fascinated me that two people could look at the same piece of data, and one person go, "Whoa, this is important. I get it." And the other person goes, "Eh, nah." And it's always amazed to me. So that I think also defines extraordinary people, that they can see things that other people don't see or appreciate, Brad.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Well, I think one thing that probably has helped me, I've always believed in common sense. I mean, I think common sense has been put down way too much. And we've got examples of that all over the country now with stuff. But common sense I think plays a big role. It's like, I'll give you a recent example, and I'm showing this study in our course coming up in two weeks, just out of fairness and trying out of balance. But, they have Mendelian randomized trials where they try to prove from a genetic perspective something's causal or not. Well, they just published one. The headlines are, Processed Meat and Red Meat are not Causal of Arterial Disease. So I said, "Wow, that's interesting, because kind of contrary to all the other stuff we've seen."
So I get this study and I look at it, and I put together a couple of slides I'm going to show on it. But the way they did this study, they found 10 snips that act as a proxy for how much processed meat and red meat somebody eats. They're making the assumption because of these snips have been associated. "Well, people who have these snips, they tend to eat more processed meat and red meat." That's their assumption.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
It's an assumption.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
And then they come to this big conclusion. "Well, we've proven now genetically that processed meat and red meat aren't causal." I mean, that's where you have to use your common sense. It's like, "No, wait a minute. Wait a minute. You didn't test these 400,000 people for how much processed meat or red meat they're really consuming. You just looked at 10 little snips of genes." And they're making the assumption they've got these snips, so they're the 200,000 that consume more processed meat, red meat, than the other 200,000. And there was no difference in cardiovascular events. So we just proved... I mean, come on, use some common sense. That doesn't fly.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, exactly. Brad, I just want to thank you so much for-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Well no, thanks.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
... sitting down and spending time with me today.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Thank you. You've done great care for all your patients. and the products you've developed, and all the dental infections you've helped prevent with your products. No telling how many hundreds of thousands or millions of lives you've helped save. So thanks for all your great work.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know, Brad-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
And you're an innovator yourself, you're a founder.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You know, so much of your story I can relate directly to, just as my own journey. And trying to get to the base of actually treating what causes cavities, instead of just treating cavities. And the disconnect of like, "Well, then we won't make any money if we don't have cavities." And just that whole experience. But when I started that journey, I just wanted to cure cavities. I wanted people to stop having cavities, my patients, my family and friends. I'm in a small town. And not really at 25 years ago, we didn't appreciate, "Well, you have a healthier mouth," as a result of that, both in terms of cavities and gum disease. We've prevented a lot of systemic disease, heart attacks and strokes without knowing it. We were just trying to get their mouth healthy and didn't realize or really appreciate it at the time, the direct connection between oral disease and systemic disease. I'm saying heart attacks and strokes, and cancer now even as well.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Right. Even how long you live, it impacts that.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so it's been-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah. Well, great. Well, yeah. There are a lot of parallels, and hopefully somebody's interviewed you for this podcast, so you can continue your story.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, that hasn't happened yet, but it will happen at some point.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
We need to get somebody to interview for your story. It'd be as fascinating or more so than anybody.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Well, I appreciate that, Brad. But I really appreciate you spending-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Great work.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
... a ton of time, and being out here and give me a chance to just offer-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Maybe you'll invite me to the Rendezvous sometime.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh, hey, you are coming back-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
It's a great thing.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
You are coming back to the Rendezvous.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
That'd be fun.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Oh gosh. We're having our 25th anniversary this year.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, so.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
That's great. Well, congratulations.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Thanks, Brad.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
Yeah, you've helped a lot of people-
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah, well we're having-
Dr. Bradley Bale:
.. so thanks, it's always fun visiting with you, Kim.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Yeah. Okay, thanks, Brad.
Dr. Bradley Bale:
All right, thank you.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Thank you so much, Dr. Bradley, Bale for joining me today. And to our listeners, this marks our final episode of 2024. I want to sincerely thank you for tuning in. We can't wait to see you in 2025 with more incredible conversations, with more extraordinary people. Around here we aim to inspire and create connections. We can't do it without you. If this conversation moved you, made you smile, or scratched that little itch of curiosity today, please share it with the extraordinary people in your life. And if you do one thing today, let it be extraordinary. Bye for now.